Showing posts with label Slavery. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Slavery. Show all posts

Wednesday, August 17, 2011

Kids Talk About Slavery



What happens when you ask a bunch of kids to define slavery? Free the Slaves visited the Agape International Spritual Center and asked the children: What is slavery? The answers were very enlightening.

Monday, July 05, 2010

What to the Slave is the 4th of July?

Frederick Douglass - July 4, 1852

Fellow citizens, pardon me, and allow me to ask, why am I called upon to speak here today? What have I or those I represent to do with your national independence? Are the great principles of political freedom and of natural justice, embodied in that Declaration of Independence, extended to us? And am I, therefore, called upon to bring our humble offering to the national altar, and to confess the benefits, and express devout gratitude for the blessings resulting from your independence to us?

Would to God, both for your sakes and ours, that an affirmative answer could be truthfully returned to these questions. Then would my task be light, and my burden easy and delightful. For who is there so cold that a nation's sympathy could not warm him? Who so obdurate and dead to the claims of gratitude, that would not thankfully acknowledge such priceless benefits? Who so stolid and selfish that would not give his voice to swell the hallelujahs of a nation's jubilee, when the chains of servitude had been torn from his limbs? I am not that man. In a case like that, the dumb might eloquently speak, and the "lame man leap as an hart."

But such is not the state of the case. I say it with a sad sense of disparity between us. I am not included within the pale of this glorious anniversary! Your high independence only reveals the immeasurable distance between us. The blessings in which you this day rejoice are not enjoyed in common. The rich inheritance of justice, liberty, prosperity, and independence bequeathed by your fathers is shared by you, not by me. The sunlight that brought life and healing to you has brought stripes and death to me. This Fourth of July is yours, not mine. You may rejoice, I must mourn. To drag a man in fetters into the grand illuminated temple of liberty, and call upon him to join you in joyous anthems, were inhuman mockery and sacrilegious irony. Do you mean, citizens, to mock me, by asking me to speak today? If so, there is a parallel to your conduct. And let me warn you, that it is dangerous to copy the example of a nation (Babylon) whose crimes, towering up to heaven, were thrown down by the breath of the Almighty, burying that nation in irrecoverable ruin.

Fellow citizens, above your national, tumultuous joy, I hear the mournful wail of millions, whose chains, heavy and grievous yesterday, are today rendered more intolerable by the jubilant shouts that reach them. If I do forget, if I do not remember those bleeding children of sorrow this day, "may my right hand forget her cunning, and may my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth!"

To forget them, to pass lightly over their wrongs and to chime in with the popular theme would be treason most scandalous and shocking, and would make me a reproach before God and the world.

My subject, then, fellow citizens, is "American Slavery." I shall see this day and its popular characteristics from the slave's point of view. Standing here, identified with the American bondman, making his wrongs mine, I do not hesitate to declare, with all my soul, that the character and conduct of this nation never looked blacker to me than on this Fourth of July.

Whether we turn to the declarations of the past, or to the professions of the present, the conduct of the nation seems equally hideous and revolting. America is false to the past, false to the present, and solemnly binds herself to be false to the future. Standing with God and the crushed and bleeding slave on this occasion, I will, in the name of humanity, which is outraged, in the name of liberty, which is fettered, in the name of the Constitution and the Bible, which are disregarded and trampled upon, dare to call in question and to denounce, with all the emphasis I can command, everything that serves to perpetuate slavery -- the great sin and shame of America! "I will not equivocate - I will not excuse." I will use the severest language I can command, and yet not one word shall escape me that any man, whose judgment is not blinded by prejudice, or who is not at heart a slave-holder, shall not confess to be right and just. . .

What to the American slave is your Fourth of July? I answer, a day that reveals to him more than all other days of the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mock; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are to him mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy - a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation of the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of these United States at this very hour.

Go search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out every abuse and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival.

Friday, June 11, 2010

First US Recipient of State Department's Anti-Trafficking Hero Award to Be Given This Year




Great news out of Washington, DC: U.S. State Department to recognize CIW Anti-Slavery Coordinator Laura Germino as 2010 "Anti-Trafficking Hero"!

CIW Modern-Day Slavery Museum headed to DC to serve as backdrop for the ceremony. Germino (above, leading Sec. of Labor Solis on
recent tour of museum) to be first US recipient of State Department "Hero" recognition...


As part of the annual TIP report release, the State Department recognizes the efforts of a handful of individuals from around the world who have shown extraordinary commitment and leadership in the fight against slavery, TIP "Heroes" as the State Department calls them.

This year, Laura Germino, the CIW's Anti-Slavery Campaign Coordinator, has been chosen to receive this terrific distinction, and when she does, she will be the first U.S.-based recipient to receive the recognition.

We are extremely proud of Laura, whose untiring work fighting forced labor in Florida -- beginning in the early 1990's -- helped launch today's anti-slavery movement in the U.S. Nearly twenty years later, Laura continues to investigate slavery operations, work in partnership with the Department of Justice to prosecute slavers, and train state and local law enforcement, community service organizations, and FBI personnel in how to identify and combat forced labor across the Southeast.

We are also very proud that the State Department has requested that the CIW's Modern-Day Slavery Museum serve as the backdrop for the 2010 TIP report ceremony. The museum will begin its way up 95 tomorrow with the goal of making it there in one piece for Monday's ceremony in Washington, DC!

The museum, housed in an actual cargo truck outfitted as a replica of the trucks involved in a recent slavery operation (U.S. v. Navarrete, 2008), may or may not make it there for the ceremony, so, just in case it doesn't, we're including here a great video on the museum and its tour earlier this year across the state of Florida. The video is set to, "Captain, Don't You Kill Old Bob," a work song performed by Fred Lee Fox, a 20-year-old turpentine worker, in 1939. The song was recorded by Stetson Kennedy, Florida's foremost folklorist and a renown human rights activist, at a labor camp outside Cross City, Dixie County, Florida.

Enjoy, and check back soon for more details on Monday's ceremony in Washington!
My personal exposure to the work of this organization leaves me with great happiness that this award is being given to Laura Germino. From the direct service they provide to farmworkers and their Anti-Slavery Campaign to their work on the demand side of labor exploitation and trafficking with the Campaign for Fair Food, this is definitely an organization worth following and supporting. You can gain information from their website on the statistics concerning farmworkers. You can read about their efforts in The Slave Next Door. You can explore their Take Action page to find out how you can help. Hopefully this recognition will also lead to greater attention to the slavery, abuse and exploitation that happens in our fields every day.

Please follow the release of this year's report this Monday, June 14th.


Congratulations to Laura Germino and the CIW!

Saturday, July 11, 2009

Obama's Visit to Former Slave Outpost in Ghana and Old and New Slavery


Today, U.S. President Barack Obama made a side trip during an official visit to Ghana to see a former outpost of the Atlantic Slave Trade, where millions of Africans were sent to become slaves all over the world, including the U.S. Most of the media commentary related to his visit talks about the emotional pull that touring such a place has for the person visiting; this piece by Komla Dumor from the BBC I particularly feel is very well written.

Cape Coast, Ghana

Before heading to the Cape Coast to see the physical remnants of the Atlantic Slave Trade, Obama mentioned human trafficking during his official speech in Accra; more than once, actually:

Picture from Amnesty International

It is easy to point fingers, and to pin the blame for these problems on others. Yes, a colonial map that made little sense bred conflict, and the West has often approached Africa as a patron, rather than a partner. But the West is not responsible for the destruction of the Zimbabwean economy over the last decade, or wars in which children are enlisted as combatants. In my father's life, it was partly tribalism and patronage in an independent Kenya that for a long stretch derailed his career, and we know that this kind of corruption is a daily fact of life for far too many...

Time and again, Ghanaians have chosen Constitutional rule over autocracy, and shown a democratic spirit that allows the energy of your people to break through. We see that in leaders who accept defeat graciously, and victors who resist calls to wield power against the opposition. We see that spirit in courageous journalists like Anas Aremeyaw Anas, who risked his life to report the truth. We see it in police like Patience Quaye, who helped prosecute the first human trafficker in Ghana. We see it in the young people who are speaking up against patronage and participating in the political process...

That is why we must stand up to inhumanity in our midst. It is never justifiable to target innocents in the name of ideology. It is the death sentence of a society to force children to kill in wars. It is the ultimate mark of criminality and cowardice to condemn women to relentless and systematic rape. We must bear witness to the value of every child in Darfur and the dignity of every woman in Congo. No faith or culture should condone the outrages against them. All of us must strive for the peace and security necessary for progress.

In the course of the trainings we conduct on behalf of the International Institute of Buffalo, in order to talk about the development of modern anti-trafficking laws, we explain that the conditions of trafficking existed prior to 2000 in the U.S., we just didn't have a name for it [i.e. a federal law that gave it a name]. Inevitably at the end, one participant will mention, "Well, we did have a name for this before the federal law, didn't we? I mean, isn't this slavery?"

True. Human trafficking is a modern-day slavery. Ron Soodalter and Kevin Bales devote some of their first pages in The Slave Next Door to talk about the old and new forms of slavery:

Picture from About.com

Most Americans' idea of slavery comes right of Roots - the chains, the whip in the overseer's hand, the crack of the auctioneer's gavel. That was one form of bondage. The slavery plaguing America today takes a different form, but make no mistake, it is real slavery. Where the law sanctioned slavery in the 1800s, today it's illegal. Where antebellum masters took pride in the ownership of slaves as a sign of status, today's human traffickers and slaveholders keep slaves hidden, making it all the more difficult to locate victims and punish offenders. Where the slaves in America were once primarily African and African American, today we have "equal opportunity" slavery; modern-day slaves come in all races, all types, and all ethnicities. We are, if anything, totally democratic when it comes to owning and abusing our fellow human beings. All that's required is the chance of a profit and a person weak enough and vulnerable enough to enslave.

This is capitalism at its worst, and it is supported by a dramatic alteration in the basic economic question of slavery. Where an average slave in 1850 would have cost the equivalent of $40,000 in modern money, today's slave can be bought for a few hundred dollars. This cheapness makes the modern slave easily affordable, but it also makes him or her a disposable commodity. For a slaveholder it's often cheaper to let a slave die than it is to keep the slave alive. There is no form of slavery, past or present, that isn't horrific; however, today's slavery is one of the most diabolical strains to emerge in the thousands of years in which human have been enslaving their fellows.


So, again, yes, human trafficking is a modern form of slavery, and some victims today suffer from the same humiliation and physical violence used in historical slavery: degrading physical inspection and bargaining for their sale, kidnapping, chains, back-breaking field and housework, among many others. However our historical understanding of slavery should not hinder our ability to understand its modern form: just because we don't see physical chains or public auctions does not mean we should assume that when someone is being exploited for labor or sexual purposes that it is not slavery or trafficking, as it is now known.

I hope that I will be able to make the trip to Cape Coast Castle at some point in the near future because I believe the trip would be a powerful reminder that so many of our modern human rights problems, including trafficking, have their roots in historical human rights abuses. However, the modern form of slavery needs a modern response: simply declaring it illegal isn't enough. Ensuring that our fellow human beings aren't victimized by traffickers will take an educated public and collaboration among government, non-government, international and law enforcement agencies alike to address root causes and consequences. It will also take a persistence that defies any notion that just because a problem has thousands of years of history, it is impossible to overcome.

Saturday, August 30, 2008

Redemption

Old pirates, yes, they rob I, sold I to the merchant ships...

Friday, August 29, 2008

Slavery and Freedom in the Caribbean and Latin America


The Legacy of Slavery: Unequal Exchange conference resulted from the passage of Senate Bills 2199 and 1737 in 2000 and was meant to address a number of issues related to the economic and political legacy of slavery, the roles of governments and businesses in this enterprise, and the question of reparations for the descendants of slaves.

Thursday, July 31, 2008

Marley in the Morning



Get up, stand up, Stand up for your rights. Get up, stand up, Don't give up the fight.

Monday, June 30, 2008

Corona Businessman Draws on Famous Ancestry to Fight Human Trafficking



From the Press-Enterprise:

By Janet Zimmerman

As a boy, Kenneth Morris Jr. used to sit at the top of his family's Maryland beach house overlooking the fields where his ancestor, abolitionist Frederick Douglass, once toiled as a slave.

Morris, a Corona businessman, grew up surrounded by stories and relatives of Douglass and his other famous relative, Booker T. Washington, his great-great-grandfather and founder of Tuskegee University in Alabama.
Until recently, Morris, 46, left public appearances and speeches about the family legacy to his mother, Nettie Washington Douglass, who was the first generation to join the two bloodlines. Her mother was from Washington's side of the family, and her father from Douglass' side.

It is only in the last few years that Morris began talking about his heritage.

"A friend of mine came to me and said, 'With your lineage and the platform your ancestors built through struggle and sacrifice, you have an obligation to help people,' " Morris said.

With his newly formed Frederick Douglass Family Foundation -- www.fdff.org on the Web -- Morris is working to end human trafficking, from factories and fields to prostitution. "It's slavery as horrific as the slavery we're familiar with in this country," he said. "It will take millions and millions of people to rise up and put an end to this."

The group raises awareness and money for organizations that rescue and help some of the estimated 27 million victims worldwide, he said. The foundation encourages public lobbying of lawmakers on human trafficking legislation and urges states to put such laws on the books. Morris' friend and former co-worker, Robert Benz, alerted him to the subject of modern-day slavery after reading an article about it in National Geographic. He knew Morris, whom he describes as up-front, congenial and likeable, was the one to spread the message.

"Frederick Douglass doesn't have to survive only in the history books. He can become relevant again in the persona of Ken Morris, who is taking up the cause of abolition in his stead," said Benz, executive vice president of the foundation.

Douglass, who taught himself to read and write, escaped slavery at age 20 and went on to become a revolutionary journalist, speaker and writer. He was influential in Abraham Lincoln's signing of the Emancipation Proclamation.

Washington was born a slave. When he was freed at age 9 under the Emancipation Proclamation, he worked in a salt mine and saved his money to attend Hampton Institute in Virginia. He later became a teacher and established Tuskegee for freed slaves.

Read the full article

Friday, June 27, 2008

Burning Spear- Slavery Days



A healthy dose of Reggae to start the day, Happy Friday.

Thursday, June 19, 2008

Should African Americans Be Given Reparations for Slavery?

Sunday, January 27, 2008

Martin Luther King Jr. Day



*I know this post is late, but it took me a while to put together and I wanted to make sure it was comprehensive. It is inspiring to see, thanks to the efforts of freedom fighters like Martin Luther King Jr., how far we have come, yet, in light of the present day thriving trade in persons, humbling to know there is still much work left to be done. A salute to all those working to uphold civil rights and end modern day slavery around the world, happy (belated) Martin Luther King Jr. day!


From Wikipedia:

Martin Luther King, Jr. (January 15, 1929April 4, 1968), was one of the main leaders of the American civil rights movement. King was a Baptist minister, one of the few leadership roles available to black men at the time. He became a civil rights activist early in his career. He led the Montgomery Bus Boycott (1955 - 1956) and helped found the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (1957), serving as its first president.



His efforts led to the 1963 March on Washington, where King delivered his “I Have a Dream” speech. Here he raised public consciousness of the civil rights movement and established himself as one of the greatest orators in U.S. history. In 1964, King became the youngest person to receive the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to end segregation and racial discrimination through civil disobedience and other non-violent means.

King was assassinated on April 4, 1968, in Memphis, Tennessee. He was posthumously awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Jimmy Carter in 1977. Martin Luther King Day was established as a national holiday in the United States in 1986. In 2004, King was posthumously awarded a Congressional Gold Medal.

At the White House Rose Garden on November 2, 1983, U.S. President Ronald Reagan signed a bill creating a federal holiday to honor King. It was observed for the first time on January 20, 1986, and is called Martin Luther King Day. It is observed on the third Monday of January each year, around the time of King's birthday. In January 17, 2000, for the first time, Martin Luther King Day was officially observed in all 50 U.S. states.


1963
March on Washington, “I Have a Dream” speech

Read more

The African-American Civil Rights Movement

From Wikipedia:

In the late 19th century, Democratic-controlled states, mainly in the South, passed racially discriminatory laws. In the South, but also elsewhere in the United States, racial violence aimed at African Americans mushroomed. This period is sometimes referred to as "the nadir of American race relations." Elected, appointed, or hired government authorities began to require or permit discrimination, in the states of Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee, Oklahoma, and Kansas.



Required or permitted acts of discrimination against African Americans fell mainly into four categories: (1) racial segregation—upheld by the United States Supreme Court decision in Plessy v. Ferguson in 1896—was legally mandated by southern states and by many local governments outside the South; (2) voter suppression or disfranchisement in the southern states; (3) denial of economic opportunity or resources nationwide, and (4) private acts of violence and mass racial violence aimed at African Americans, which were often encouraged and seldom hindered by government authorities.



The combination in the southern states of these issues became known as "Jim Crow". The southern "Jim Crow" regime remained almost entirely intact into the early 1950s and contributed to the Great Migration, a steady northward flow of African Americans from 1910-1970. The situation for African-Americans outside the South was somewhat better, as they could vote and have their children educated. They faced discrimination in housing and jobs



The Civil Rights Movement prior to 1955 confronted discrimination against African-Americans, chiefly in the South, with a variety of strategies. These included litigation and lobbying efforts by traditional organizations such as the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP). The crowning achievement of these efforts was the legal victory in Brown v. Board of Education (1954), which overturned the "separate but equal" legal doctrine derived from Plessy and made segregation legally impermissible but provided few practical remedies.



Private citizens, simultaneously invigorated by the victory of Brown but frustrated by its lack of immediate practical effect, increasingly rejected gradualist, legalistic approaches as the primary tool to bring about desegregation in the face of "massive resistance" by proponents of racial segregation and voter suppression. In defiance, they adopted a combined strategy of direct action with nonviolent resistance known as civil disobedience. Acts of civil disobedience produced crisis situations between practitioners and government authorities. The authorities of federal, state, and local governments often had to respond immediately to crisis situations, and the results were often in the practitioner's favor. Some of the forms of civil disobedience employed included boycotts, beginning with the successful Montgomery Bus Boycott (1955-1956) in Alabama; "sit-ins" such as the influential Greensboro sit-in (1960) in North Carolina; and marches, such as the Selma to Montgomery marches (1965) in Alabama.


Rosa Parks sits in the front of a bus

Noted legislative achievements during this phase of the Civil Rights Movement were passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1957 (minor in its effects, but the first anti-discriminatory federal legislation since Reconstruction), the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that banned discrimination in employment practices and public accommodations, the Voting Rights Act of 1965 that restored voting rights, the Immigration and Nationality Services Act of 1965 that dramatically changed U.S. immigration policy, and the Civil Rights Act of 1968 that banned discrimination in the sale or rental of housing.

Slavery in the United States

From EH.net:

Nearly 4 million slaves with a market value of close to $4 billion lived in the U.S. just before the Civil War. Masters enjoyed rates of return on slaves comparable to those on other assets; cotton consumers, insurance companies, and industrial enterprises benefited from slavery as well. Such valuable property required rules to protect it, and the institutional practices surrounding slavery display a sophistication that rivals modern-day law and business.



Not long after Columbus set sail for the New World, the French and Spanish brought slaves with them on various expeditions. Slaves accompanied Ponce de Leon to Florida in 1513, for instance. But a far greater proportion of slaves arrived in chains in crowded, sweltering cargo holds. The first dark-skinned slaves in what was to become British North America arrived in Virginia -- perhaps stopping first in Spanish lands -- in 1619 aboard a Dutch vessel. From 1500 to 1900, approximately 12 million Africans were forced from their homes to go westward, with about 10 million of them completing the journey. Yet very few ended up in the British colonies and young American republic. By 1808, when the trans-Atlantic slave trade to the U.S. officially ended, only about 6 percent of African slaves landing in the New World had come to North America.



Central to the success of slavery are political and legal institutions that validate the ownership of other persons. A Kentucky court acknowledged the dual character of slaves in Turner v. Johnson (1838): "[S]laves are property and must, under our present institutions, be treated as such. But they are human beings, with like passions, sympathies, and affections with ourselves." To construct slave law, lawmakers borrowed from laws concerning personal property and animals, as well as from rules regarding servants, employees, and free persons. The outcome was a set of doctrines that supported the Southern way of life.



The English common law of property formed a foundation for U.S. slave law. The French and Spanish influence in Louisiana -- and, to a lesser extent, Texas -- meant that Roman (or civil) law offered building blocks there as well. Despite certain formal distinctions, slave law as practiced differed little from common-law to civil-law states. Southern state law governed roughly five areas: slave status, masters' treatment of slaves, interactions between slave owners and contractual partners, rights and duties of non-contractual parties toward others' slaves, and slave crimes. Federal law and laws in various Northern states also dealt with matters of interstate commerce, travel, and fugitive slaves.



Market prices for slaves reflect their substantial economic value. Scholars have gathered slave prices from a variety of sources, including censuses, probate records, plantation and slave-trader accounts, and proceedings of slave auctions. These data sets reveal that prime field hands went for four to six hundred dollars in the U.S. in 1800, thirteen to fifteen hundred dollars in 1850, and up to three thousand dollars just before Fort Sumter fell. Even controlling for inflation, the prices of U.S. slaves rose significantly in the six decades before South Carolina seceded from the Union. By 1860, Southerners owned close to $4 billion worth of slaves. Slavery remained a thriving business on the eve of the Civil War: Fogel and Engerman (1974) projected that by 1890 slave prices would have increased on average more than 50 percent over their 1860 levels. No wonder the South rose in armed resistance to protect its enormous investment.

From Wikipedia:

The American Civil War, beginning in 1861, led to the end of chattel slavery in America. Not long after the war broke out, through a legal maneuver credited to Union General Benjamin F. Butler, a lawyer by profession, slaves who came into Union "possession" were considered "contraband of war". General Butler ruled that they were not subject to return to Confederate owners as they had been before the war. Soon word spread, and many slaves sought refuge in Union territory, desiring to be declared "contraband." Many of the "contrabands" joined the Union Army as workers or troops, forming entire regiments of the U.S. Colored Troops (USCT). Others went to refugee camps such as the Grand Contraband Camp near Fort Monroe or fled to northern cities. General Butler's interpretation was reinforced when Congress passed the Confiscation Act of 1861, which declared that any property used by the Confederate military, including slaves, could be confiscated by Union forces.



Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation of January 1, 1863 was a powerful move that promised freedom for slaves in the Confederacy as soon as the Union armies reached them, and authorized the enlistment of African Americans in the Union Army. The Emancipation Proclamation did not free slaves in the Union-allied slave-holding states that bordered the Confederacy. Since the Confederate States did not recognize the authority of President Lincoln, and the proclamation did not apply in the border states, at first the proclamation freed only slaves who had escaped behind Union lines.

Still, the proclamation made the abolition of slavery an official war goal that was implemented as the Union took territory from the Confederacy. According to the Census of 1860, this policy would free nearly four million slaves, or over 12% of the total population of the United States.The Arizona Organic Act abolished slavery on February 24, 1863 in the newly formed Arizona Territory. Tennessee and all of the border states (except Kentucky) abolished slavery by early 1865. Thousands of slaves were freed by the operation of the Emancipation Proclamation as Union armies marched across the South. Emancipation as a reality came to the remaining southern slaves after the surrender of all Confederate troops in spring 1865.

There still were over 250,000 slaves in Texas. Word did not reach Texas about the collapse of the Confederacy until June 19, 1865. African Americans and others celebrate that day as Juneteenth, the day of freedom, in Texas, Oklahoma and some other states. It commemorates the date when the news finally reached slaves at Galveston, Texas.

Legally, the last 40,000 or so slaves were freed in Kentucky[42] by the final ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution in December 1865.

* What other advocates of freedom and civil liberty around the world do you think should be recognized? Send in suggestions with relevant links and I'll post them.